Wednesday, 23 May 2012

RTK Blog: Is Racism alive and well in football?

Steve Doughty of the Daily Mail recently wrote a piece that defies logic. In the wake of the allegations facing Louis Suarez and John Terry, his piece entitled “Football may not be perfect but it has come a long way since the 70’s” He not only condones the racist abuse allegedly dished out by John Terry, he goes on to suggest that the victims should just get on with the game, for in his analysis “…there are worse things to complain about…” He points out that the UEFA campaign to kick out racism leads to “… Every club seems to be promoting a kick racism out of football campaign, beyond the point of boredom…” Really Mr Doughty, it’s boring to reduce the vile slurs directed against fellow professional footballers by their associates? Perhaps as boring the repetitive public campaigns to alert children to the risk of being preyed upon by paedophiles I suppose? The point being, just because the previously overt crime has been driven underground by social pressure, does not mean it is therefore close to becoming extinct. So continual reminders are required to underline our intolerance of the practice.

He apparently sees the lack of racism in crowds today symptom of the rarity of racism in our society. I wonder which stratum of society he frequents as in my opinion racism is alive and well in many East and Western European countries. Just to prove the point further there is also the rather perverse “reverse racism” against white people in some Caribbean or Asian countries. There is undoubtedly less racism upon the terraces compared with the seventies, yet Mr Doughty fails to point out that the main reason for this is the likelihood of the offenders receiving criminal records. Yet his attempt to portray his views as objective fail the test when he finally concedes that  “Football reflects us all as it always did, and these days it’s both racist and not racist at the same time.” Having missed the point with the precision of Adeybayor missing the proverbial barn door, one wanders if he actually believes his own piece of garbage, as to call it journalism would be an insult to his more articulate colleagues.

The intervention of the Metropolitan Police should be interesting as a complaint was received from a member of  the public. Any half decent lip reader will be able to “hear” John Terry mouth words which appear to suggest  “ Clucking Fack Bunt,” and  a Clucking  Knobhead! If you don’t believe me, or have not seen the footage then watch this video here on JT mouthing abuse  and judge for yourself. To suggest that Anton Ferdinand was not racially abused having seen this footage, is in my opinion, as crass as to deny the existence of gravity when an apple falls from a branch. Please note that I am not accusing John Terry of being a racist, merely in my opinion of appearing to having used racist language, and there is a difference. The semantics around John Terry’s defence will I predict be one of “Intention or motivation”.

The sport of Cricket is not one that we associate with racism, but the practice of Sledging was introduced by the Australian Gary Coring in the sixties. He bowled for New South Wales and upon hearing that his wife was having an affair with another cricketer, when this man came to the crease, the bowler began to sing the Percy Sledge number “When a man loves a woman” the result was staggering and the shocked cricketer fell apart. Sledging was born, and it has ranged from the humourous to the downright abusive. There in lies the problem. Sledging in cricket is used to cause mental disintegration according to Ian Chappell, a famous Australian cricketer. But having strenuously denied that sledging represents bad gamesmanship Chappell goes on to  refute that the motivation of sledging is to cause personal abuse. One can see therefore that it is all about what is the intended consequence of using this tactic? Without doubt in my opinion, whether it be abuse in the form of sledging or racial obscenities as possibly used by John Terry, the intended consequence is to undermine the psychological stability of the intended victim. In mentally strong individuals this will be like water off a ducks back, but in extremely weak and vulnerable individuals, as in on-line bullying, the consequences may cause the victim to commit suicide in very extreme cases. What is clear is that in reality, all forms of humour can by this analysis, be found offensive by someone somewhere if their threshold for embarrassment or hurt is exceeded.

Political correctness was intended to establish an environment where moral values were attached to words or phrases or descriptions. The intention for this was clear, it was to protect vulnerable less eloquent individuals who may not even been aware that they were being subjected to demeaning or perjorative labels, as this wiki definition of PC  indicates

Political Correctness is the term applied to language ideas, policies, and behavior seen as seeking to minimize social and institutional offense in occupational, gender, racial, cultural, sexual orientation, certain other religions, beliefs or ideologies, disability, and age-related contexts, and, as purported by the term, doing so to an excessive extent.”

The other argument which apologises for personal abuse in ordinary society is that this is the slang or colloquial “norm” for people in a particular culture or social stratum who readily understand that no real offense is meant by the usage of such language. In fact it is considered by those proponents as more of a weakness if the intended victims did not retaliate in kind or failed to see the funny side of the remarks. Here is where we who enjoy football and support our team fanatically will be judged. Many fans, Arsenal fans included have pet hates which feed the tribal unity that we see as passion and loyalty to the badge. The most commonly well sung chants at Arsenal refer to abusing Tottenham, Adebayor or Ashley Cole.  The recent chants about deaths in Angola were the most despicable aspects of this conduct. But can anyone reading this blog honestly state that they have never in their lives uttered abuse towards someone?

Children do it the playground upon a daily basis, and in it’s most excessive form it becomes bullying. So in one sense the apologists for personal abuse are correct. Sayings like ”One man’s meat is another man’s poison“, or “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” underlines just how difficult it is to make a definition black or white.  The solution is rather a diffuse shade of gray taking the analogy further, which obliges us to establish what is generally acceptable within our culture and situation, and having the discipline to operate within those boundaries as a gold standard in terms of politeness, decency and good conduct. This requires the individual to make a personal choice rather than have imposed upon themselves a politically correct solution which sanitises humour and prevents what can be called as” jovial banter“. For without this test most comic humour would be deemed excessively abusive by those parameters, and those finding the jokes funny could be labelled as condoning abuse.

However the football case is quite different at this level and I shall try to explain why.  I am old enough to have suffered foul racist abuse at the hands of The National front, an extremist far right group with racist views in the sixties and seventies. I remembered being regularly chased by white “ skinheads “ wearing braces and Dr Marten boots who wanted to kick my  “stinking Nigger head in” and send me back to Africa, despite the fact that I was working class and born and bred in Wolverhampton. unfortunately one had to combat violence with violence in those bad old days, it was a them or you, a simple matter of survival in physical health terms.  It was Denton “The Bear” who larger than life figure prevented the NF gaining ground at Highbury. If you called Denton “The Bear” a Clucking Fack Bunt, the chances are you would wake up in hospital regretting it later. Whilst this defiance enabled young black people to become safer because of our warlike responses, it had it’s downside for I recall almost being expelled for regularly fighting my white schoolmates who racially abused me. Sadly in these aspects of my past I regret having the need as I did, to indulge in violent acts against my persecutors. But I did this to fight for the right to walk the corridors of my Grammar school without being barged into the wall, or having to listen to equally foul racist jibes. I wanted equality nothing else, which is why I disagree with those members of the black community who seek positive discrimination. I am not looking for favours from white establishments, neither do I believe in political correctness, I will earn respect on merit, anything less which forces people to hold a hypocritical stance devalues the true meaning of society and respect.

Yet if John Terry uses this defence of “local and acceptable banter between mates” and wins his case then the flood gates will have been opened. The other evidence of innocence that will be argued by John Terry’s lawyers will undoubtedly be the absence of any complaint from Anton Ferdinand, and the fact that Terry apologised to him in the dressing room afterwards. Supporters of John Terry would have you believe that they are good mates apparently. So why have all this fuss? The Police intervention occurred following a complaint from a member of the public. They are then required to establish whether an offence under the law on racist crime has been committed. I think that John Terry will escape punishment and this will represent how much high profile figures are given leniency by the authorities. Yet I argue that this would be rank hypocrisy by anyone’s standards. The Metropolitan Police themselves have insisted that the absence of a complaint from women subjected to domestic abuse will not prevent the Police from arresting and prosecuting the offenders. The Police must use the standard set by the anti-racism legislation established in the crime and disorder act 1998 which states

To prove that an offence is racially or religiously aggravated, the prosecution has to prove the “basic” offence followed by racial or religious aggravation, as defined in section 28 Crime and Disorder Act 1998. An offence will be racially or religiously aggravated if:

a) at the time of the offence (or shortly before or after), the offender demonstrates to the victim hostility based on the victim’s membership (or presumed membership) of a racial or religious group, or

b) the offence is motivated wholly or partly by hostility towards members of a racial or religious group based on their membership (or presumed membership) of that group.

The definition of Hostility is the big problem especially when the insults are between apparently “good friends” and no complaint is made to the Police. The CPS states that

“Demonstrating hostility is not defined by the Act. The ordinary dictionary definition of hostile includes simply being “unfriendly”. Proving this limb of the offence requires evidence of words or actions which show hostility toward the victim. However, this hostility may be totally unconnected with the “basic” offence which may have been committed for other, non-racially or religiously motivated reasons. For example, an assault which takes place because of an argument over a parking place, but where the offender then utters racial abuse to the victim of the assault would come within the scope of this part of section 28. To be motivated by hostility may prove more difficult in practice.

In the absence of a clear statement by the accused that his/her actions were motivated by his hostility to his victim based on his race or religious belief, for example, an admission under caution, how can motive be shown? In some cases, background evidence could well be important if relevant to establish motive, for example, evidence of membership of, or association with, a racist group, or evidence of expressed racist views in the past might, depending on the facts, be admissible in evidence.”

So there you have it. John Terry calling Anton Ferdinand a “Clucking Fack Bunt” following an altercation on the field of play COULD fall under the section 28, but in finding this, the prosecutors would have to prove racist motivation on the part of John Terry, who will be able to state that most of his best mates are black. So the only person who can hold John Terry to account will be Anton Ferdinand. If Ferdinand accepts that John Terry’s words are merely the Football equivalent of sledging, then many offensive chants will immediately become quite difficult to prosecute as football fans should be able to argue that they too like John Terry have a right to indulge in football sledging or banter. So the outcome of this case will determine whether or not racism is alive and well in football, despite the kick it out campaign. The stakes from one moment of stupidity by John Terry may allow significant precedents to be set which undermine completely the good work done in football to date. For my part, I hope that John Terry is found guilty as I have no respect for his behaviour in other aspects of his life, and he should not be England Captain and ergo a role model for many young football players. If young people tolerate racism and are led by his example to believe that this is acceptable jovial banter, then the cause of fighting racism in the game will have been set back by three decades. What do you think?

Rocky the King  rtk@arsenalinsider.com  Twitter @RTKafc_insider

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Rocky_The_King

Ok I wasn't born and bred a Gooner, but after being in the wilderness, I saw the light and beat a track for Highbury. I have been a season ticket holder for over a decade, and now a life member of the Arsenal Supporter's trust. I hate the Scum and Man U with a passion. Formerly FTK I am co-owner of Arsenalinsider and it's chief blog writer, I can be found having a rant about all things Arsenal, and believe me, you had better listen...

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  • Anonymous

    It’s very much alive in football as long as vacuous wankers like Terry are in it.

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    • pure pires

      otally agree with you Terry is nothing more than a thug hope they throw the book at him 

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    • Anonymous

      You might say that Harry… but I couldn’t possibly comment….lol

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    • Anonymous

      You might say that Harry… but I couldn’t possibly comment….lol

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  • Guest

    You make some good points but serve to undermine your argument on a couple of points:

    1) Terry has not denied saying the words FBC, he instead suggests they were preceded by the words “Oi Anton, I never called you a…..”. Unfortunately the camera is obscured by Ashley Cole during this time and so it is hard to prove one way or another. To say, as you do “To suggest that Anton Ferdinand was not racially abused would be as
    crass as to deny the existence of gravity when an apple falls from a
    branch” is wrong. Spurious as Terry’s defence may seem, you cannot imply a racist motivation without looking at the words in context.Terry’s defence does not revolve around what passes as “banter” but merely that the words captured on camera were taken out of context. Again, I’m not suggesting that Terry is definitely telling the truth, purely that the crux of your article surrounding what his defence will be is inaccurate.
     
    2) To say “I hope that John Terry is found guilty as I have no respect for his behaviour in other aspects of his life” is not only ridiculous but completely undermines your whole article. To suggest that someone should be found guilty on the grounds of unrelated behaviour is as absurd as suggesting that someone should be found guilty based on other unrelated factors (such as the colour of their skin). Terry should be tried fairly taking into account the testimony of those close to the incident and any other supporting evidence.

    I support the sentiment of your article and agree that, if found guilty, Terry should have the book thrown at him, but whilst the question of what is acceptable “banter” on a sports field is an interesting one, it is not relevant to this particular case.

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    • Anonymous

      Thankyou Guest for pointing out the weakness in my article which I accept entirely as this subject is an emotive one for me given my past. I hope that the matters are cleared up, and I welcome the additional information that John Terry is shouting a denial, but it then raises the question why he thought it necessary to loudly protest his innocence?
      Let me explain…
      An altercation between Terry and Ferdinand occurred and afterwards the situation is calmed by the referee. Ferdinand is vocally retaliating to something that JT said.
      What possessed Anton to think that he was subjected to a racist taunt?
      Perhaps JT did literally say You Clucking Fack Bunt and Anton misheard it and assumed that JT said you F****ng Black C***  to which JT would loudly protest No I didn’t call you a Clucking Fack Bunt, you Knobhead…

      Finally I accept that my hope that JT is found guilty also in itself carries a generalisation, but this is borne out my frustration that JT was given back the armband following alleged misconduct with another fellow professional’s ex partner. To be England Captain like heads of state or leading members of a community, one has by society’s standards to have behaviour which is beyond moral reproach.
      Hence again the emotional response on my part.

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      • Guest

        I agree that Terry’s defence seems far from watertight, especially as various newspaper reports now suggest that Ferdinand was unaware of any suggested racist language until watching it on the internet after the game so what would lead Terry to think he had to refute the case?

        Equally strange is the lack of reaction from Ashley Cole. If Terry was indeed racially abusing Ferdinand, you’d think his behaviour would transcend friendship and Cole would have acted. It will be interesting to hear what Cole says when he is called to give evidence, which it seems likely he will be.

        I think Terry’s argument goes something along the lines that he said: “It was a foul you f..ing blind c…”, to which he thought Ferdinand accused him of being racist leading him to say “Oi Anton I never called you a FBC etc”. Whether this seems likely or not is up for debate but rightly or wrongly, that is Terry’s defence – not that he used those words within the framework of “acceptable banter”.

        To be honest, I wish Ferdinand would make a statement either way as he has neither accused or exonerated Terry which has led to this trial by media. Although to be fair to Ferdinand, if he was unaware of the incident at the time he’s probably as much in the dark as the rest of us.

        I completely understand why it is hard to be balanced when considering such an emotive subject but, for me, this makes it even more important that any such arguments are rational as such serious accusations must be proved before we can start judging people.

        For me the accusation of racism is far more serious than one of allegedly cheating with your mate’s ex-partner. I also disagree that the England captain (and sportsmen in general) should be held up to the same moral standards as elected officials but that’s a whole new can of worms. However, if these accusations of racism are proved to be true then his position as captain of both England and Chelsea is untenable and criminal charges should be pressed.

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        • Anonymous

          I too wish that Anton Ferdinand would make a statement, but given the attitude of Chelsea towards their neighbours as evidenced by an article on the official website before the game which caused QPR much offence, I wonder if some senior heads are intervening and suggesting that the last thing football needs at the moment is another set of rivalries akin to West Ham United and Millwall.
          On the point of the image of England Captain, I have to disagree with you, as many young impressionable footballers do tomorrow what the England Captain does today, therein lies the harm!

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  • Anonymous

    The kick racism out of football failed miserably as did the respect campaign and many others aimed at improving the image of the game. Really the attitiudes within football probably mirror the attitudes in general society.

    The only thing I can say is that racism is much worse in southern and eastern europe than it is in the uk and central and northern europe but the most obvious racism in these countries seems to come at football matches. Obviously that doesn’t mean that the small amount of open racism here is acceptable.

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    • Anonymous

      I agree SuperRob, but what amazes me is the amount of racism present in Eastern bloc countries , and southern european countries. I suspect that it is due to economic migration, but I will probably get slated as being a racist for having said that…lol

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      • Anonymous

        I think it could be the opposite. The longer you have immigration into any country, the less racist it gets. The uk used to be very racist as you know but the fact there are so many people from different ethnic backgrounds here (many of whom are like me and are ‘second generation immigrants’ and were born here) the more tolerant society becomes. It takes time for people and society in general to get used to the idea that a person who has different colour skin isn’t actually different to them.

        I suspect that the lack of ethnic diversity in eastern europe is partly why they are still behind.  There’s a famous quote “ignorance breeds intolerance” or something along those lines. If you’ve never seen someone of a different race let alone met them and gotten to know them you are much more likely to be prejudiced towards them in a negative way.

        Also it has alot to do with economic situations of the country if there are alot of immigrants and the resident population want a scapegoat for why they don’t have a job.

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  • Nicky

    As someone of advanced years who watched and played his football mainly pre-WW2, I have tried to discover the reason(s) for the advent of (a) racism and (b) obscenities in our national game. Neither vice was present pre-war so one could presume that those momentous years when our country had enemies to hate, had something to do with it.
    During the immediate post-war years, many citizens of the old British Empire (now independent) were allowed to settle in the United Kingdom. We needed their labour and they wanted a new and better life. Many worked hard and prospered, but were different to us in colour and lifestyle. This gave rise to envy and suspicion in many cases and racism was spawned. In football, players were  rightly recruited regardless of their colour and being different, were obvious targets for the ignorant racists among the fans, particularly when they performed well for the opposition. It is quite noticeable that there is little racism practised by  fans on members of their own team.
    During WW2, the general moral standards of the country deteriorated. With  a high proportion of the male population being drafted into the Armed Forces, the 
    introduction of the obscenity became the norm in general conversation and on demobilisation not everyone saw the need for change. The occasions when a husband could cheerfully take his wife to a game  dwindled, due to the language directed at all and sundry, including the match officials.
    And there you have it……. the changes in lifestyle which influenced not only all of us who lived during a World War but also, unknowingly, affected the lives of those who  have come after.
    The solution to both these vices? It would take a monumental change in the
    make-up of the human spirit but how that could be achieved is beyond most people’s comprehension. 

     

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    • Anonymous

      Thank you Nicky for such valuable insight into a part of UK history. I have to agree that racism is in part a real fear of and distrust of strangers. But in the final analysis it is down to the lack of respect that one person has towards their fellow human being.

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  • Notoverthehill

    The simple fact is that nobody asks to be born.  It is equally true that no one has any control over whom their biological parents are or were.

    The fact is that people boast about something they have had no control over.  I regret that a certain well known black artiste spent a lot of money researching creams etc., that would make her skin less black.  White is a colour, end of story!

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    • Anonymous

      I often feel sad for those black people who feel the need to turn white, whilst most white people are trying to get brown suntans…hahahahaha
      There is however a more serious underlying concern, and that is thye feeling of inferiority that some of those people felt. This insecurity and inferiority complex has affected some black people quite badly and the response is to isolate themselves and reject everything non black.
      this is also prevalent in the religious conflicts that we have.
      so the solution? tolerance is bred from an open mind. A fanatical tribal mind will remain closed because there is real anxiety in being outside of that construct.

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      • Anonymous

        I believe skin whitening (or lightening) is a big problem in India. apparently removing pigmentation from your skin isn’t particularly healthy!

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  • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

    And I still maintain he said “Blind C***” If you watch it closely, it has all got out of hand, why did none of the 8 Black players hear it and why have none of them come forward as all Black people would and condemned his behaviour ?
    The Answer = He said Blind !

    Personally I hope they throw the book at the bloke because I detest him, and off on a tangent why are football songs more offensive now than ever in an era where more women and children attend stadia in finer conditions than in the history of the game?

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    • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

      delete this point please for me thanks, it is pointless having a view if they are not being assessed accurately from the person who is making them..

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  • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

    And I still maintain he said “Blind C***” If you watch it closely, it has all got out of hand, why did none of the 8 Black players hear it and why have none of them come forward as all Black people would and condemned his behaviour ?
    The Answer = He said Blind !

    Personally I hope they throw the book at the bloke because I detest him, and off on a tangent why are football songs more offensive now than ever in an era where more women and children attend stadia in finer conditions than in the history of the game?

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  • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

    Right as RTK likes to meet things head on I am going to meet him right bang on with my own version of things that will be tasteful, topical and also what I believe to be factual..and it is my opinion that because people are scared to even say what I am about to that we have this whole bloody mess in the first place,
    Define Racism ?
    I am fiercely proud of my family history, I am fiercely proud of my upbringing with wonderful people with wonderful values who like most grand and great grand parents pass on and leave us with a sense of family pride, I am not anti Black people, or anybody of any race at all but I would not be particularly happy if my daughter married anybody of any other race not because I am racist but because I am proud of my family history and would not want my family to even have the slightest chance of it not being white in years to come, I also think this would apply to a Spaniard living in a little remote village in Spain who has had a fishing business all his life and found his daughter had married a beer swilling brit who would immediately dilute his family heritage, I respect people think I am wrong, and I respect people who do enjoy mix raced marriages and are blissfully happy but it is not for me and my beliefs, I am not scared to speak my beliefs and I am not going to be accused of being racist either because my daughters happiness comes first and it is her happiness that matters, but she does know my beliefs, but those beliefs do not prevent me taking plenty of children to football , swimming etc of all races, religions and beliefs that are friends of my children, being offensive to other races is totally unacceptable but I am not about to call a blackboard a chalkboard, I won’t bow down to stupidity and I won’t dance around the subject, If you need my help I don’t care who you are I will help you but I am right to be proud of my history and my values ..lose those and we have nothing left to aspire to..

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    • Anonymous

      Hello Bigsy, and the delay in replying was not down to ignoring your comment, but because I was involved in an internet TV interview on this subject.
      Ok
      You don’t want your future Bigsy stock to be diluted by non white genes, but at the same time you would react strongly against anyone who called you a racist.
      The very roots of your fierce pride of being white was an unfortunate one to pick. Had you said english, welsh or irish and of course scottish, I would not have had a problem with it.
      But I am not going to mince my words either. Whilst you do not harbour malice towards black people in overt racist terms, such as wanting them dead or repatriated to their own cultures, the most unfortunate essence of facist nationalism as proposed by Hitler was the prevention of contamination of the select arian race.

      To this end your views are severely xenophobic and whether you like it or not racism is a variant of xenophobia.
      That having been said the same extreme intolerance exists in some religious sects.
      The biggest culprits are in fact the Jews, who many millions of decent white and none white men died to save in WW2

      I have friends who are liberal jews and they are ostracised by their Orthodox colleagues. One jewish friend who wanted to marry a non jewish person was given a very hard time by his parents, probably in the same way as you would give your daughters.

      You are entitled to your views, but why do you feel the need to impose them upon your children?

      I truly feel sorry for you mate, because I never thought that you were capable of such intolerant views.
      Tolerance is about respect, and if you could not respect a black man who became your daughter’s choice,then it is as bad as homophobia, xenophobia, racism, religious extremism, or what ever group you care to mention.

      Wars have been fought to support the right to be unique in gene pool terms.
      This is called GENOCIDE

      the last sad example being the Bosnian muslim massacre by the serbs in Szbrenicza and the Hutu massacre in Rwanda.
      So please feel free to respond, but I suspect you really do know that your views are contemptable in moral terms, and deep down you are embarrassed by them hence your offensive need to reject a label of being racist.
      I have not called you racist by the way, merely a true xenophobe with sympathies that were held by Hitler, I wonder Bigsy mate which is actually worse?

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      • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

        I said if my daughter was happy with a Black man then I would sooner that than a bloke who beats the crap out of her, don’t you dare fish for something that is not there, I am quite capable of being passionate about something but respecting others have a right to their own view and nothing highlights that more than being on here..if people want to mix their races and genes in that manner then good luck to them but personally it is not for me, that does not make me racist it means I have a certain opinion that I choose to stick to but entirely understand and welcome others who choose to have a different opinion…look the point I am trying to make is that I am very fearful of the fact that we have a nation of people scared to walk in a sweetshop and specifically ask for a bar of white chocolate, we all have choices in this country that is why it is so multi cultural and free speech is the key to it, I really would appreciate it if you didn’t try and turn my comment into some bloody fascist statement …to ANSWER THE FINAL POINT !!! does it not concern anyone else that in 50 years the white man will be in the minority on these shores ? due to birth rate and immigration as it stands ? it doesn’t happen anywhere else..and as for the welsh, irish and scottish comment, Im not English im British don’t forget that !!!…to truly understand the resentment amongst people and therefore the anger that goes to football with them we must understand what the man on the street is unhappy with, I am not talking about Blacks born here or anyone else for that matter mate, I am very concerned that everyone who appears to not be the stereo typical english person is made to feel uncomfortable but that is a government issue, not a football one and it has crossed over into all walks of life now..I resent the non english speaking sponger living off of us and now they have all been categorised as the nation hits rock bottom, I hope people get this how it is intended i really do, plenty of anger goes to football now more than ever in my opinion. I did say my daughters happiness comes first !..sorry for long winded explanation but got to get this delicate subject clear..

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        • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

          PS.Hitler was a shocking example and I am not happy about that at all, a man is entitled to a view without being accused of being comparable with a man who was a bully who welcomed no other views but his own, your reply is precisely the reason people shut up and say nothing anymore in this country, but I am big enough and intelligent enough to lay my views out in a manner that any decent person can see is a man enviously looking at other races in the world maintaining a country as traditionally their own, go and call Australians fascists ..i just think they are protecting what is theirs ..opinions vary ! 

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          • Anonymous

            “Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration” – from wikipedia. How is that different from not wanting  “my family to even have the slightest chance of it not being white in years to come”.

            according to the 2001 census, ethnic minorities accounted for 6.8% of the population. It’s not actually that big a proportion and nowhere near what the media would have you believe.

            And in my experience, Australia’s institutionalized racism is amongst the worst in the world. I was shocked at how ‘news’ coverage hailed the ‘heros’ in the air force who had ‘protected’ australia’s ‘indigenous population’ (white descendants of immigrants) from a boat of about 10 refugees who were fleeing war in their home country by threatening to shoot them from helicopters.

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          • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

            SuperRob in 40 years on this planet living in this nation if I was to write the whole reason I have these views I would be here all week, to shorten it like I am having to is appearing wrong and making me look something I am not which is also unfair, I grew up in Cheshunt from a family that lived in Tottenham and Wood Green, we had an influx of people from the West Indies during the 50′s and 60′s and 2 good mates of mine are from parents who were part of that influx, they were born here and are as English as me, another close pal is Malaysian and a Muslim and my views are actually shared by all of them, I moved to Norfolk 14 years ago because I would not stand by and watch my children having Hindu assemblies and being in the minority in an English classroom, I respect various religions and races have ENGLISH children born here, but their religions must not become a day to day feature of the future of this nation, we are still a Christian country somehwere in all of this and my Grandfather did not go to war for us as a nation to just toss our identity away within 60 years, I care not what colour you are I care not what religion you are but in this Country you abide by the historical facts and underwritten values we live by, in the same way I have to in any other nation I set foot in, now my point for the 3rd time is very loud and clear, people are growing with unrest surrounding these areas and they no longer care if people were born here, they see an innocent ‘Black’ man as the reason they are not allowed to have a view, they see an innocent ‘muslim’ as the reason they are not allowed to hang a St Georges flag from their window, the nation what is left of it have had enough and right now it seems anyone not conforming to the idealistic English Man is fair game !…Do I feel guilty that next week my children will be going to school in Norwich learning about English History and being taught English values ? not in the bloody slightest, because my cousins kids will be singing “Migotać,  migotać mały gwiazdy jak chcieć wiedzieć ” that is twinkle twinkle little star in Polish which they have been learning on half term all week….she is absolutely furious about it and is currently looking for property in Norfolk too…exactly like America this country everyone is running for the coast, except Americans make it crystal clear that they are loyal to their flag..”god bless whatever country I live in these days”..and Grandad R.I.P

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          • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

            PS..I’m adamant this is the reason noone gives a toss about the national team anymore, we lost our national identity years ago and of course having scum bags like JT in it won’t help anyone, be proud to be English there is not much left of it these days..and that does not make me a racist !

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          • Billyr

            Right.  That’s why other multicultural countries like France, Germany, and Australia don’t give a toss about their national teams.  Oh wait.

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          • Billyr

            mate, you don’t have “British blood”.  “British” is a relatively modern concept.  It will die out some day just as surely as Celts, Angles, Saxons, Normans, and Tuetons made way for the “British” identity

            That is why your form of racism is just plain stupidity.  It’s great to be proud of your roots, but to pretend there is some purity about it is retarded.

            Anyway, colour of skin is only one genetic feature you pass down to your children.  Are you proud of your white blood cell count, or the rate at which your liver processes starch?  If not, then why be arbitrarily proud of your skin colour

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          • Anonymous

            “Fascists seek to rejuvenate their nation based on commitment to the national community as an organic entity, in which individuals are bound together in national identity by suprapersonal connections of ancestry, culture, and blood. To achieve this, fascists purge forces, ideas, people, and systems deemed to be the cause of decadence and degeneration” – from wikipedia. How is that different from not wanting  “my family to even have the slightest chance of it not being white in years to come”.

            according to the 2001 census, ethnic minorities accounted for 6.8% of the population. It’s not actually that big a proportion and nowhere near what the media would have you believe.

            And in my experience, Australia’s institutionalized racism is amongst the worst in the world. I was shocked at how ‘news’ coverage hailed the ‘heros’ in the air force who had ‘protected’ australia’s ‘indigenous population’ (white descendants of immigrants) from a boat of about 10 refugees who were fleeing war in their home country by threatening to shoot them from helicopters.

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        • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

          PS.Hitler was a shocking example and I am not happy about that at all, a man is entitled to a view without being accused of being comparable with a man who was a bully who welcomed no other views but his own, your reply is precisely the reason people shut up and say nothing anymore in this country, but I am big enough and intelligent enough to lay my views out in a manner that any decent person can see is a man enviously looking at other races in the world maintaining a country as traditionally their own, go and call Australians fascists ..i just think they are protecting what is theirs ..opinions vary ! 

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  • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

    Right as RTK likes to meet things head on I am going to meet him right bang on with my own version of things that will be tasteful, topical and also what I believe to be factual..and it is my opinion that because people are scared to even say what I am about to that we have this whole bloody mess in the first place,
    Define Racism ?
    I am fiercely proud of my family history, I am fiercely proud of my upbringing with wonderful people with wonderful values who like most grand and great grand parents pass on and leave us with a sense of family pride, I am not anti Black people, or anybody of any race at all but I would not be particularly happy if my daughter married anybody of any other race not because I am racist but because I am proud of my family history and would not want my family to even have the slightest chance of it not being white in years to come, I also think this would apply to a Spaniard living in a little remote village in Spain who has had a fishing business all his life and found his daughter had married a beer swilling brit who would immediately dilute his family heritage, I respect people think I am wrong, and I respect people who do enjoy mix raced marriages and are blissfully happy but it is not for me and my beliefs, I am not scared to speak my beliefs and I am not going to be accused of being racist either because my daughters happiness comes first and it is her happiness that matters, but she does know my beliefs, but those beliefs do not prevent me taking plenty of children to football , swimming etc of all races, religions and beliefs that are friends of my children, being offensive to other races is totally unacceptable but I am not about to call a blackboard a chalkboard, I won’t bow down to stupidity and I won’t dance around the subject, If you need my help I don’t care who you are I will help you but I am right to be proud of my history and my values ..lose those and we have nothing left to aspire to..

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  • Dongorg

    Fascinating insights – really fascinating.  I particularly liked Nicky’s perceptive and slightly romantic piece and I also see where Horsey whatsisname is coming from.  However, RTK, I think you are slightly naive to expect anything else from the DM.  The DM has a problem – always has.  They like nothing bettter than to portray Black males in their stereotypical way. “All criminals, mainly muggers……etc.”  Witness the proliferation of photos of black males in American prison garb on their site – a UK newspaper I might add.  Any crime commtted by a Black male, anywhere on the planet it seems, is given disproportionate and undue prominence.  Why not pictures of Russian or Asian or other Euro white males, committing similar crimes, with comparable prominence or vitriol?  Because their readers are mainly white and the aforementioned tactics serve to reinforce their latent perceptions of Black males. 

    Look, I don’t need to get too deep but it is clear that fotball has indeed come a long way since the 70s – at least it is fairer, both on the pitch and terraces.  RTK’s point about fighting for acceptance, literally beating the crap out of anyone who wanted to use unwelcome racial language, is very significant because those very tactics will now land you in jail.  This has created a safety zone for those types wishing to indulge in this type of language and they know it.

    Horsey…….  I once said that I will never marry a “…..” girl. precisely for the reasons of family heritage you espouse for you and the Spanish fisherman.  But that is selfish.  Very selfish and spites not only you but your sibling with potentially devastating consequences. 

    Lastly, a lot of myth surrounds the impact of the NF.  I remember being told to be afraid of them because of this and that.  Never was and never had any issue with them, despite being a very large black male in a 95% white army garrison town.  An obvious target?  Happy days!  I also used to go to Chelsea in the 80′s with a mate – you know, C18, NF/BNP/Skinheads blah blah blah.  Never ever had a single problem.  Paul Cannoville had to fight for his acceptance and he did. 

    Doughty is a knob. plying the self serving tactics of a known racist rag, so don’t lose any sleep over his and his kind. 

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    • Anonymous

      Thank you Dongorg for your articulate and passionate response.
      I referred to reverse racism as practiced by black people. This was done in my view because of the hatred that generations had for the persecution suffered under slavery.
      Then of course there were the scientific theories that are still peddled today, that white people are more intelligent than their enslaved black people.
      In South Africa the Apartheid system was based upon not wanting to dilute white culture with the inferior black gene pool.
      Is it any wonder then, in the light of such concerted xenophobia and racism, that black people developed their own reverse racism and hatred of all things white?
      Mixed race couples don’t have it any easier either, as they are often rejected by both cultures.
      The solution?
      There is one clear solution and that is to stop isolationist policies whether they be religious or cultural.
      We must also try to educate, yes educate those who mistakenly believe that the right to step outside of the selfish label or colour or culture should not be given to their children.
      With tolerance comes respect, and if more people respected themselves and others on this small planet of ours, I believe that the world would be a peaceful and more happier place to be in

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  • Dongorg

    Fascinating insights – really fascinating.  I particularly liked Nicky’s perceptive and slightly romantic piece and I also see where Horsey whatsisname is coming from.  However, RTK, I think you are slightly naive to expect anything else from the DM.  The DM has a problem – always has.  They like nothing bettter than to portray Black males in their stereotypical way. “All criminals, mainly muggers……etc.”  Witness the proliferation of photos of black males in American prison garb on their site – a UK newspaper I might add.  Any crime commtted by a Black male, anywhere on the planet it seems, is given disproportionate and undue prominence.  Why not pictures of Russian or Asian or other Euro white males, committing similar crimes, with comparable prominence or vitriol?  Because their readers are mainly white and the aforementioned tactics serve to reinforce their latent perceptions of Black males. 

    Look, I don’t need to get too deep but it is clear that fotball has indeed come a long way since the 70s – at least it is fairer, both on the pitch and terraces.  RTK’s point about fighting for acceptance, literally beating the crap out of anyone who wanted to use unwelcome racial language, is very significant because those very tactics will now land you in jail.  This has created a safety zone for those types wishing to indulge in this type of language and they know it.

    Horsey…….  I once said that I will never marry a “…..” girl. precisely for the reasons of family heritage you espouse for you and the Spanish fisherman.  But that is selfish.  Very selfish and spites not only you but your sibling with potentially devastating consequences. 

    Lastly, a lot of myth surrounds the impact of the NF.  I remember being told to be afraid of them because of this and that.  Never was and never had any issue with them, despite being a very large black male in a 95% white army garrison town.  An obvious target?  Happy days!  I also used to go to Chelsea in the 80′s with a mate – you know, C18, NF/BNP/Skinheads blah blah blah.  Never ever had a single problem.  Paul Cannoville had to fight for his acceptance and he did. 

    Doughty is a knob. plying the self serving tactics of a known racist rag, so don’t lose any sleep over his and his kind. 

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  • 66gooner99

    Clearly racism is alive and well in Norfolk at least. In my experience ” I’m not racist but… and some of my best friends are…” are the usual precursors to a racist statement or at least the regurgitation of some racial stereotype or swamping myth. Coincidentally (or not), most of the people I’ve come across with these views are Daily Mail/Express readers. Racism is still widespread in this country. 
    Whether it is dressed up as anti-Islamic protest or campaigning against travellers sites. It’s always easier to blame your problems on a scapegoat than to try to see the underling causes. It may be displayed in more sophisticated guises, but it is essentially the same.I honestly think that many football clubs are simply paying lip-service to the campaign against racism. It’s good PR just as long as they don’t have to change anything. If football is serious about dealing with racism it has to be seen to act. The clubs including Chelsea and Liverpool must act as well. It is not enough for the police or the FA to investigate and punish the perpetrators. Both clubs have essentially supported their players and attempted to play down the incidents. That’s hardly in keeping with the spirit of the campaign.

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    • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

      Having pride in your nation is not racism, have you been to Luton recently ?

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  • horsesisalliknowaboutbigsy

    Robin Van Persie you racist !..kick him out …how funny that should happen after all that has been said on here !…clearly we all know he is not but more evidence of the stupid country this has now become..

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